
The Detroit Red Wings are considered, in most circles, as the model franchise in the NHL. With four Stanley Cups in the past 14 years -- and six trips to the Finals -- it's hard to argue against that belief. Impossible, actually. But are they overrated when it comes to their success at the NHL Entry Draft?
On Monday, the great Maple Leafs blog, Pension Plan Puppets, unveiled an overwhelming analysis of every pick in the NHL draft from 1994 to the present created by one of their members. One of the surprising observations? The Detroit Red Wings are, according to his analysis, one of the worst teams in the NHL when it comes to the draft.
Blasphemy!
From the analysis:
"Detroit has the best scouting department in the NHL" is one of most repeated phrases in any draft discussion, but I'm not convinced that's true. Player development? Top notch. But actually consistently drafting NHL-calibre players? Not their forte. If you refer back to the first chart posted above, you'll notice that Detroit is DEAD LAST in 3 of the 4 categories (% that made it to the NHL, % that played 200 games, # of games played per player drafted), and 27th in the other. That's not good. Of course, drafting 2 franchise players in the late rounds makes up for that, but when the bulk of your drafted players end up being "busts", that's not a good sign.If you're interested in seeing the Red Wings' complete draft history, Pro Hockey Reference is a nice resource.
You can't argue with the numbers in the study, and I suppose the observation is correct that, in terms of consistently drafting players that make the NHL, the Wings are near the bottom of the pile. But is it because they're just not very good at scouting? Or is it something else?
My thoughts ...
Quality is better than Quantity
While it's true the Red Wings, over the given time period, had the least successful draft record in terms of getting players to the NHL, playing 200 games, and games-played-per-player, the players that did make the NHL, for the most part, turned out to be impact talents, or, at the very least, useful players for playoff teams: Tomas Holmstrom, Pavel Datsyuk, Jiri Fischer (before his career was cut short), Henrik Zetterberg, Niklas Kronwall, Jiri Hudler, Valtteri Filppula, Tomas Fleischman (traded to Washington), and Jonathan Ericcson stand out. Based on this year's postseason, there appears to be plenty of promise for Darren Helm and Justin Abdelkader, while Kyle Quincey, a Red Wings draftee who was picked off waivers by the Kings, is a fine young player.
Basically, there's no middle ground for the Red Wings; they either get an impact-type player, or they get nothing.
Is that a bad thing? Frankly, I don't think so. These are the types of players (high-end, elite level talent) that you win Stanley Cups with.
Using the database, the team's with the highest success rates of putting players into the NHL were the San Jose Sharks, Boston Bruins, Ottawa Senators. Buffalo Sabres and Colorado Avalanche. Since 1994, those five teams combined to win two Stanley Cups between 1994 and 2008 (both for Colorado) while they played in just four Finals (two for the Avs, one for Buffalo, one for Ottawa).
Picking near the end of the draft is difficult
The best players, obviously, come at the top of the draft, and the Red Wings, as a result of their constant winning over the past decade-and-a-half, have not held a pick in the top 20 since 1991 (they selected Martin Lapointe), which is a rather incredible run. They also had no first-round pick seven times dating back to 1994.
Again, using the database, the success rate of first-round picks from 1996-2006, in terms of simply making the NHL is, roughly, 83 percent. The success rate plummets all the way down to 54 percent for the second round, and continues to drop to 39 percent for the third round. By not owning a first-round pick seven times, Detroit's success rate is already taking a significant hit.
By comparison, if you will recall the top teams in terms of getting players to the NHL, San Jose held 11 top 20 picks, including nine in the top 10, while Boston made seven selections at the top of the draft. Ottawa had nine picks in the top 20, including two No. 1 overall picks, a No. 2 pick, and two other top 10 selections. Needless to say, It's a lot easier to draft NHL talent when you're consistently picking at the top of the draft. I'm not ready to say Boston, for example, is better at the draft because it had the luxury of picking Joe Thornton No. 1 overall, or because it produced more third liners and marginal NHL players over the years (this goes back to the quality over quantity argument).
One final example: Only 28 percent of the players taken between picks 20 and 30 from 1994-2008 have played more than 200 games in the NHL . For picks in the top 10? 47 percent.
So, is Detroit bad at the draft? Not at all. Its poor record, in my opinion, has more to do with where it's been picking in recent years as opposed to a shortcoming in the scouting department (and another PPP member sort of touched on this particular part of the debate with this follow-up post.) And despite picking near the end of the draft, the Wings have still managed to produce their share of quality NHL players and consistently put a contending team on the ice.
Having said all of that, the entire database is worth downloading if you're interested in the NHL draft -- hell, even if you're not all that interested it's worth the look simply because it had to have taken an absurd number of hours to compile. It's an impressive resource and can lead to some interesting discoveries. For example, Jaroslav Obsut is the only player between 1994 and 2008 taken 187th overall to play in the NHL ... he played seven games.
Fascinating.
















Reader Comments (Page 1 of 1)
6-23-2009 @ 3:27PM
pensionplanpuppets@gmail.com said...
Hi Adam,
I actually wish I could take credit for the creation of the draft database as well as the follow up post but they were actually created by daoust and SkinnyFish respectively. They are members of the PPP community.
The database is definitely a work in progress and anyone that finds fault with it should definitely comment because daoust is looking at ways to tweak it so that it also weighs the quality of the players developed.
One note that he makes (and it's repeated in the comments) is that what he is suggesting is that the Red Wings' player development system is top-notch. I think it's safe to say (unless you're a Wings fan apparently judging by the reaction on some forums) is that if the Wings truly thought that their late round picks were going to be stars they would have chosen them sooner.
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6-23-2009 @ 5:27PM
John said...
Not only does picking late hurt, but having tons of veteran stars over the last 15 years plays a major factor. It's hard for kids to crack the Wing's roster when they have so many good players, especially pre-cap.
Besides a big part of their current roster WAS drafted by the team.
Kinda funny that this conclusion has been drawn by a blog of one of the worst run franchises in the last 30 years in all of sports. The Leafs have been bad for so long, and yet they still can't draft any good players picking early. A little jealousy maybe?
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6-24-2009 @ 12:29AM
daoust said...
ok, if we want to give detroit a pass because they didn't have any top 10 picks, let's look at how they fared with picks between 20th and 30th versus other teams(between 1995 and 2003, to eliminate newer players not hitting 200 games yet). from my database...
detroit - 4 picks, 1 w/200+ games (25%)
boston - 6 picks, 3 w/200+games (50%)
ottawa - 5 picks, 3 w/200+games (60%)
toronto - 3 picks, 2 w/200+games (67%)
san jose - 5 picks, 4 w/200+games (80%)
this suggests that other teams are able to find success later in the first round, but detroit hasn't been able to.
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6-29-2009 @ 9:32AM
SSW said...
A draftee trying to break in with Detroit is like a minor-league ballplayer trying to crack the Yankees lineup. Except in Detroit, the studs in front of you were mostly drafted by the team.
Now, Detroit has had a few bad drafts -- look back at 1996 for instance. Ugh.
Left off John's impressive list are captain Nicklas Lidstrom, Matthew Dandenault (1994 pick, 766 games, 2 Cups), Igor Grigorenko (a phenomenal talent, career derailed by a near-fatal auto accident) and Jimmy Howard, who has been NHL-ready for a while, and has been biding time in Grand Rapids (and will be with the team next year). Also, why the 1994 cut-off date? If you go back and include 1991, you see the Wings drafed 4 players that year who each played more than 500 games: Martin LaPoint, Jamie Pushor, Chris Osgood and Mike Knuble. Look up the Wing's 1989 draft -- which was crucial to that first Cup -- and be amazed. Including those years would change your stats dramatically.
6-24-2009 @ 7:20PM
John said...
Wow, big sample size there, a whole 3-6 picks. Surely that's enough to say a team is bad at drafting! Also very convenient to stop at 2003, did ensuing years perhaps mess up your conclusion?
All I need to know about Detroit's drafting abilities are:
Pavel Datsyuk
Henrik Zetterberg
Tomas Holmstrom
Valterri Filppula
Jiri Hudler
Nicklas Kronwall
Jonathan Ericsson
Darren Helm
Johan Franzen
Yep, they sure suck at drafting.
Leave it to Leaf's fans to have to try to find faults with other organizations because their's sucks so much.
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6-29-2009 @ 10:30PM
statsguy said...
Interesting analysis by PPP, but I see a few things wrong with it. Because you are grouping data over several years, most of the analyses are faulty. For example, the 200 + games is a generally useless statistic as recent picks haven't played enough games and quality earlier picks should have surpassed 200 + games a long time ago. (There are only 4 players from 2005 and 2 from 2006 that have played 200 + games, so you might as well exclude those 2 years from analysis.) In addition, there's no difference between 1994 draft picks Jamie Storr, picked 7th overall (219 games) and Ed Jovanovski, picked 1st overall (903 games)in PPP's analysis when one uses the 200 + games played criteria; one guy has been out of the league for years, the other is still playing. Don't try to convince me that both were successful draft picks because both played 200 + games. Stay at home defencemen, checking forwards and goalies are not going to contribute to the points analysis so that's a meaningless criteria for success.
A more meaningful analysis of draft success would be to analyze each draft independently. As noted by Adam Gretz, PPP's analysis suggests that San Jose, Buffalo, Colorado and Ottawa are the best drafting teams. Shouldn't the fact that Colorado is the only team of the 4 that has won a Cup (twice) suggest that the analysis needs some work when you are using 13 years worth of data?
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6-30-2009 @ 7:03PM
thetrutheh said...
tomorrow the trades will start. the wings are still a good team, but are they going to take a slide. ossie will stil be the starter, conklin is gone, howard is the back-up. not a good choice. maltby's skills are going, draper can still skate but ..... if holland decides to go with youth then what will be the consequences.
the reality is the wings really can't afford to sign hossa. to many to sign without the money.
hopefully the experts are right, they picked the wings to win the stanley cup next year. but........
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7-02-2009 @ 2:56PM
hockeywarrior722 said...
this is the most retarded thing i have ever read. Detroit drafted Zetterberg and Datsyuk after the 1st round and guys like Helm in the 5th round.
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